Comments on Galt's Gulch or Bust! 2.0: Plato's Republic

Sgt. I think what Adams means is that the idea of ...

2011-07-28T08:17:26.192-05:00

Sgt.
I think what Adams means is that the idea of pure libertarianism or Anarchism is only valid for a people who have a firm foundation of respect. This is what keeps me from crossing the line completely.
I am a libertarian and a 3%. However I am not naive enough to think that we are anywhere close to living in a world that truely respects the rights of others at the most basic level. I think the goal of the 3% and the whole RTC movement is to get us back to the starting point the founders laid for us and then going forward make sure that we build that foundation of respect. As it is we cannot flip a switch into a "no system" situation or it will be Somalia as the critics of libertarians like to throw out. If the people have been fed a steady diet of envy and claim to the efforts of others when it is removed they will continue to expect that diet.
Short steps..before we run.

Grenadier1

I will not attempt to answer for Craig, but I will...

2011-07-27T23:01:01.317-05:00

I will not attempt to answer for Craig, but I will give you my take. The Tea Party and other organizations have moved away from their libertarian roots and have been corrupted by establishment republican doctrine. They are now offshoots of the status quo. The only thing binding them together is being anti-Obama and anti-government run healthcare. See my post on the anti-crowd (July 5, 2011) for more about this topic. The cave, in this instance, is the status quo.

Your note on John Adams is a fallacious appeal to tradition. You are taking the words of one man in history and ascribing the meaning to all of history. Just because a person said something a couple hundred years ago, does not make it true. In fact, many of our founding fathers were deists (a modern equivalent would be a unitarian or an agnostic.) They believed in a higher power, but did not conform to any one organized religion. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin come to mind.

The fact is, there are many non-Christians in america today, just as in times past. Libertarianism seeks to find the most equitable way for all people to live with each other, Christian and non-Christian alike.

I am a Christian, so please don't think that I am attacking the Christian faith. I just see things differently. Nowhere in the Bible, does it say that we should try to bring about the kingdom of heaven on earth. That is Christ's job. Nowhere does it say that we should set up a government to force people to live a Christian lifestyle. Jesus was very specific when he said that two most important things we were to do was love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself. Above all things, those were His instructions.

The nonaggression axiom, of which all of libertarianism is founded upon, is just a rewording of the Golden Rule.

Christianity is a voluntary choice. It is a personal relationship between man and God. This cannot be forced on anyone, by an individual or by a government.

"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will." ROMANS 12:2

This means get out of the cave!

Please enlighten me as to what this means: "...

2011-07-27T21:16:32.331-05:00

Please enlighten me as to what this means: "...I began to see...even those of the so-called "tea party patriots", Threepers, Oath keepers, etc... All of these are simply circular paths that lead back to the cave."

Secondly, perhaps I can be persuaded otherwise, but I disagree with this statement: "...The founding fathers, like Plato, thought they had it all figured out. They devised a system with checks and balances so that the government would ensure individual liberty for all. Oh how far we have come since then."

I'm going to butcher the quote and likely improper attribution, but wasn't it Adams that said that our system was designed for a Christian/religious people, and that it is wholly unsuitable for any other (type of people)? They knew that our system had faults but that it would be workable for those who were self-constrained by Biblical teachings (character, really). We were "that type of people" then, as a whole, but not now, so our system will no longer work.

I'm no philosopher but this makes sense to me. I'm open to reason, though.

I good article, I appreciate it and Craig's us...

2011-07-27T14:07:25.760-05:00

I good article, I appreciate it and Craig's use of imagery in his blog as well.

I found some more thoughts about the words of the DOI here:

http://strike-the-root.com/divine-right-of-kings-in-sheeples-clothing

Very thought-provoking post. [Here via "KeepI...

2011-07-27T12:05:55.823-05:00

Very thought-provoking post. [Here via "KeepItSimpleSurvival" via "TheElectorRetards"]

Have skimmed "The Republic" so knew it's formal caste-system approach with children raised by the State and power in the hands of the Few; also knew of Cave-metaphor but your fast-forwarding & equating those flickering fire-images with TV (also how about movies of course, but the way-too-much time spent on YouTube 'flickerings')is really original and on target.

May I recommend a book for background on Hollywood and the use of most ALL storytelling-via-moving-images - whether commercials, series TV or movies: the first 150 pages of, "Outside Hollywood: the Young Christian's Guide to Vocational Filmmaking," by Isaac Botkin.

Of course it is heavily 'Christian' (no secret or surprise) but the History in those 150 pages is footnoted and invaluable. I thought I knew a lot about Hollywood-propagandizing and communism's influence in TV & movies but this really got specific and clarified & crystallized some of my thoughts.

Thanks. I look forward to reading here more often.

Craig, I agree. All of those organizations and gr...

2011-07-23T11:10:13.751-05:00

Craig, I agree. All of those organizations and groups like to claim libertarian roots, but they are mostly just a fringe of the status quo. They say the only difference between a libertarian and an anarchist is 7 years. It happens a lot faster for some of us.

Jules, I don't think any of us can ever truly make it out of the cave because no one can know all that there is to know. When you look at it on an issue by issue basis though, you are able to claim residence in the light. I find that every time I feel like I have made it out, I stumble upon something that reinforces how much more I need to learn. This life long learning process is what Plato was alluding to. Those who are in the cave accept their gubment skooling as a good education and stop there. Learning how to learn helps one see the cave, and continuing education enables one to see the light.

Nice post. Thanks for offering it up. It's t...

2011-07-23T10:54:28.415-05:00

Nice post. Thanks for offering it up.

It's tempting to do some rambling in response about how vulnerable each of us is to believing we've come out of the cave, about how many two-legged creatures are walking around on this planet thinking they've done so, but every cell of them carrying diametrically opposing certainties where the nature of the light, the nature of 'truth' is to be found.

The same is true throughout human history, Plato notwithstanding, certainly Plato until now. A lot of good has come out of it for human beings, balanced by equal amounts of bloodshed when the pendulum of popular truth swung on the other side of the circle.

I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks for sharing it.

"The best system is no system at all" M...

2011-07-23T08:47:49.013-05:00

"The best system is no system at all"

My journey into the light progressed exactly as you stated here. Once accustomed to the light, I began to see more and more. I began to see through, and beyond all the "noble lies", even those of the so-called "tea party patriots", Threepers, Oath keepers, etc... All of these are simply circular paths that lead back to the cave.

EXCELLENT post Sarge!

J Scott Hamilton, Dynamite comment! Thanks for p...

2011-07-23T02:06:36.312-05:00

J Scott Hamilton,

Dynamite comment! Thanks for posting.

The founding fathers, like Plato, thought they had it all figured out. They devised a system with checks and balances so that the government would ensure individual liberty for all. Oh how far we have come since then.

Our current dilemma shows us that there is no perfect system. We have shackled ourselves. All governments, sooner or later, tend toward tyranny. Our government is no different than any other in this respect. This leads me to believe that the best system is no system at all.

The United States founding fathers were no strange...

2011-07-23T00:53:59.732-05:00

The United States founding fathers were no strangers to ancient forms of government, nor would I imagine to Plato's Republic. Their solution to the governance dilemma was to make every citizen a sovereign unto himself and not to a monarch, thus liberating him from the tyranny of philosopher kings, no matter how noble or enlightened. The government's stated limited purpose was merely to provide essential services.

While we are all kings of our own political castles, with treaties so to speak with our respective governments, we have squandered this sovereignty with entangling commercial agreements and abrogation of duties. I doubt Plato would have foreseen a scenario where the slaves having come out of the cave and being given the chance to be each their own kings, would reject that in favor of self re-shackling.

"I realize that there is so much more out the...

2011-07-21T22:01:24.488-05:00

"I realize that there is so much more out there that I need to know. I have accepted my own ignorance. I may not be outside in full daylight, but I can at least see the cave and the fire. And I am climbing my way out of the cave one little bit of information at a time."

me too.

Since I moderate comments, I am the final arbiter ...

2011-07-20T22:13:13.805-05:00

Since I moderate comments, I am the final arbiter of what gets posted in the comments section. I thought long and hard about publishing the comment above. Finally, I opted to publish it. For those who are unaware, PIG stands for Politically Incorrect Guide.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Plato or philosophy, and it is telling. The anonymous commenter obviously thinks that this book, above all others, belongs high on the list of literature to read pertaining to our Great Conversation.

That is for you, the reader, to decide. I do not agree with it, but to each their own. I posted the comment. Everyone has a right to express their beliefs, and I do not want to be the one to censor opinion.

may i suggest for future reading the PIG to Islam....

2011-07-20T21:15:42.694-05:00

may i suggest for future reading the PIG to Islam. very enlightening as well

Thanks

2011-07-20T06:42:17.505-05:00

Thanks

Excellent post.

2011-07-19T22:26:59.164-05:00

Excellent post.